Tulpa.info - metaphysics

Sure. That's not suffering.

4:25 PM

That doesn't cause dissonance.

4:25 PM

In fact, it causes a sense of smug superiority.

4:26 PM

Whereas "Are you all imbeciles? Was I wrong?" - this causes that sense of discomfort.

Smug superiority may be pleasant, which again, is why its described as the weakest form of suffering. But its still based on believing "my pleasant output means Im now worthy" and/or "I should be praised more than is currently the case"

You're getting caught in a semantic loop - but there isn't an unpleasantness involved so how can you call it suffering?

Again, its not about unpleasantness, its about a sense of "life isnt perfect enough", in this case because Im being underappreciated

It's essentially like you're saying "Oh you're in a happy state but you understand there are imperfections; so you must be suffering on some arbitrary level."

4:30 PM

That's really just not the state.

4:31 PM

The brain is happy or it is not, no?

4:31 PM

My experience of pride has been almost universally positive internally speaking. Happy, content.

4:32 PM

I know exactly the feeling you're referring to by the way. That mild desire for more. And I've never felt it in conjunction with pride.

4:33 PM

Pride is actually a big part of how I dissipate it somewhat.

4:33 PM

Alongside other modes of behaviour.

I cant speak for you. But I know this sense of pride when I feel it. Yes, there is pleasure over my accomplishments, but underneath, even if its more subtle, there is still a sense of "this isnt quite good enough." This weak, persistent form of suffering can be more easily seen when circumstance is relatively neutral: Boredom is also described as a weak form of suffering (in this case as a subcategory of expectation). "This isnt outright painful but I wish there was a bit more stimulation" (edited)

4:34 PM

Whereas when theres no suffering, sitting in silence doesnt have that weak sense of disappointment in it

If I can be blunt; I really want to put one of these "sufferingless-beings" into a solitary confinement chamber with no regulated lightning and see what happens to them...

4:36 PM

But I am a sadist, so there's that.

You really think a Buddhist monk would mind solitary confinement?

I very much think their mind would destabilize like everyone else's

4:37 PM

Possibly within the day.

4:37 PM

Like most do when cut off from time like that.

From how Roger describes it, I think it would lead to some sense of pain, but no illusion that he could have prevented the pain, and no obsessing over how to end the pain if there is nothing that can be done.

Well typically you don't imprison someone in any other context but against their will, but that doesn't stop the results. I digress though; to bring it back to suffering though I'd say with some re-evaluation that roger's definition is actually two states of being:

One: cognitive dissonance events - these being individual instances wherein you hold two beliefs at once and it causes a heightened state of displeasure.

Two: that somewhat nameless mal-adaptive desire that humans have - This being that emotion you get when you view your goals... well... wrongly.

4:43 PM

These two things together appear to be what he is referring to.

Ill ask my two liberated friends on the other server about their thoughts on solitary confinement though and get back to you :p

On that note I acknowledge that solitary confinement totally isn't under that definition of suffering and therefore out of left field somewhat. But a sadistic part of me merely wishes to point out how arbitrary separating "suffering" and real suffering into two distinct categories is... vigorously.

4:45 PM

Pain doesn't need need to fall into that above category to break your mind and will.

shrugs Hypothetical for me. Anyway Im gonna take a nap. Good talking :)

One last thought - that "nameless mal-adaptive desire" is expectation for happiness through added pleasure. The same thing that feeds the more intense "cognitive dissonance events"

attachment

@Cassidy (@JGC) - jump I love the idea of souls as "units upon with celestial litigation and prosecution act".

5:13 PM

Awww, I missed all the fun yet again.

My mind has decided to continue to think about this topic despite my objections to the contrary so let me add something about how I perceive this definition of suffering and why that is my response to it. Imagine if you will: There is a way to remove the ability to itch, through thinking alone. Now here's the caveat: it takes approximately a decade of reflection, meditation, and study such that you are essentially the Zen Master of the sensation of itching by the end of it. This is sort of how I view this fixation on this one, fairly minor, type of suffering. It's itchy, it's not inherently mal-adaptive. That being said, there are no doubt people with eczema who could do with learning this technique of removing itchiness... but for the majority of people? Imagine now there was a philosophy built around overcoming itchiness. Removing itchiness from your life in order to achieve contentment - yes this would help the above people with eczema - but wouldn't it also make people fixate on itchiness as the source of discontent? Wouldn't this make normal people's itchiness considerably worse? I don't think removing that particular form of desire as a result are actually directly related to contentment at any point. I think the mind is just as capable of recognizing a future desire; realizing that it's experiencing something negative by doing so, and then just... stopping that at will. That's certainly what I do when I recognize myself doing it. I simply have to say to myself "Nah, stop fixating. We'll do X thing at X time and that's that. Nothing more needs thought about." for instance. I didn't need to destroy my ability to feel a thing to do that, that's just what healthy behaviour looks like. Now, comparatively, about cognitive dissonance I will say that's usually by itself the sign of something deeper that you need to address. But removing the ability to feel it would be removing an important emotion that tells you that you're wrong about something.

5:21 PM

Basically, it all seems like a lot of effort for a whole lot of doing nothing.

5:22 PM

Worthwhile in niche circumstances, but not applicable to a majority of humans who could just... learn to deal with their existing emotions adaptively.

Mmhmm, well put. A little more eloquently put than my previous comments that it seems like it lumps in a bunch of unnecessary baggage.

Back from my nap, and on my computer now so I can type faster and look smarter

5:49 PM

I understand why you would feel this way @Zen

5:50 PM

I simply have to say to myself "Nah, stop fixating. We'll do X thing at X time and that's that. Nothing more needs thought about." for instance.

For starters, this is described as one of the ways that suffering eventually comes to an end. The "working mind" recognizes suffering and says "hey this is suffering, relax" and the narrative comes to a halt. (Of course this isn't described as something "you" do "at will" though ;P)

I do need to read back on what was being said about cognitive dissonance though, as I might have an opportunity to disagree with both sides.

Hahahaha

Scarlet

I do need to read back on what was being said about cognitive dissonance though, as I might have an opportunity to disagree with both sides.

Imagine if you will: There is a way to remove the ability to itch, through thinking alone. Now here's the caveat: it takes approximately a decade of reflection, meditation, and study such that you are essentially the Zen Master of the sensation of itching by the end of it. [...] Imagine now there was a philosophy built around overcoming itchiness.

Yes - for most people, suffering is mild enough that they never think of it as something that needs solving (or is even possible to solve). Keep in mind also that no one is saying, "hey, if you read this, you SHOULD fix your suffering, and here's what YOU can DO to make that happen"

5:54 PM

But, as I mentioned above, really this "mild suffering" is driven by the exact same two beliefs that are also responsible for intense guilt, shame, blame, hatred, worry, anxiety etc

5:55 PM

Understanding that they're all based on a shared misunderstanding is what undoes all of them - if life provides the conditioning to undo this misunderstanding

5:56 PM

And that's where "spiritual teachings" (descriptions of what suffering is and on what basis it arises) come in

5:58 PM

That once you no longer see agency where there is only design and conditioning, and once you no longer believe that pleasure will fix this subtle underlying sense of worthlessness (and that pain is what caused it to begin with), all of these thought patterns come to a halt (unlike momentary emotions such as joy, excitement, sadness, anger etc)

6:04 PM

My mind has decided to continue to think about this topic despite my objections to the contrary

Finally - an admission that I'm right and you were wrong! :p

Understanding that they're all based on a shared misunderstanding is what undoes all of them

This is I think, part of the philosophy that I contend. That misunderstanding causes the minor form of discomfort occur - but it doesn't make cognitive dissonance happen by itself. Shame, blame, and so on. Cognitive dissonance is what causes these, not directly the misunderstanding of your own autonomy. I am extremely leery of the claim that such people are beyond even their own definition of suffering as a result. Theoretically if I assume they are it means they can no longer experience cognitive dissonance from other misunderstandings - which should be patently false. If they are, they have given themselves a form of dysfunction by doing so - removed an aversive response to two conflicting beliefs which is often the only way we know that we even have two conflicting beliefs. (edited)

6:05 PM

Cognitive dissonance is something you can hold about any sufficiently deep belief, not just ones based on your autonomy.

Shame, blame, and so on. Cognitive dissonance is what causes these, not directly the misunderstanding of your own autonomy.

They're caused by a misunderstanding of your own autonomy, combined with a belief along the lines that "pain is morally unacceptable - this shouldn't have happened, this needs to be prevented, life unfolded incorrectly in order for this to happen"

6:09 PM

Theoretically if I assume they are it means they can no longer experience cognitive dissonance from other misunderstandings - which should be patently false.

Can you give me some examples of cognitive dissonance that is unrelated to autonomy/the validity of painful circumstance?

6:11 PM

Cognitive dissonance is something you can hold about any sufficiently deep belief

I cannot speak from my own experience here, but keep in mind that according to Roger, once suffering dissolves because life is recognized as a 100 % subjective experience (essentially a dream with very consistent laws of physics), no beliefs are held deeply anymore - there are only concepts that can be adapted once circumstance warrants it. He likes to say, "if I saw an apple floating across the room, I would be surprised, but I wouldn't be that surprised."

One of the extremely glaring ones is when people are confronted with evidence against their religious beliefs.

Once again, whether theres pleasure associated with it or not doesnt come into the question of whether its suffering. We often derive pleasure from expectation too, such as making intricate plans of how to spend our holiday. In fact I think suffering is usually accompanied by some weak sense of pleasure, otherwise the jig would probably be up by now. Even when we contemplate our perceived failures, there may be some sense of "at least Im trying to atone and be a good person from here on out" So yes, smugness would fall under pride/arrogance even though it may feel pleasant

(Leaving this one up because it's my favourite thing I've said today) (edited)

Even though pride/arrogance can feel pleasant (so can expectation, e. g. making a detailed plan for how your vacation needs to go) it results from a feeling of "I can only feel good about myself when Ive achieved certain outcomes." Arrogance can also manifest as "you should love me for what Ive achieved" if someone else doesnt approve of "your" accomplishments

It seems like this is resolved by having pride in your actions after the fact, not before they occur, and by not caring whether other's recognize it or not innately trusting their ability to do so. (Ironically, more pride, in a way.

)

The tl;dr from me is that pride as a state is never suffering until it is doubted.

Yeah, but as we've determined, when you (Zen) say "pride", you mean a sense of self-satisfaction that's independent of any "personal" achievements. Roger would call that peace of mind rather than pride.

And yes that's basically my conclusion as well. Doubt is the real source of that type of suffering. Whereas strong pride may bring you to the wrong decisions, it's quite pleasant as a state.

Once again, whether theres pleasure associated with it or not doesnt come into the question of whether its suffering. We often derive pleasure from expectation too, such as making intricate plans of how to spend our holiday.

This is actually a, I understand, established best-practice for increasing happiness, to plan future vacations and such in advance so that you also get to enjoy the anticipation. Now, I know the framework doesn't care about pleasure and pain, but why should it actively avoid pleasure in some cases.

btw anticipation isn't pleasurable for me.

6:31 PM

If I can be blunt.

6:31 PM

I hate it.

Now that said, in psychology in some cases I understand they differentiate between two types of happiness. Happiness "in the moment" and happiness "about your life", and we may need to differentiate them if we go into this conversation.

It's not saying "you should avoid the pleasure of anticipation", it says "the anticipation is a result of thinking this present moment would not be worthwhile without it"

Zen

btw anticipation isn't pleasurable for me.

Interesting. Why do you think that is?

I prefer to distract myself than anticipate.

6:31 PM

Because it's focusing on something that isn't happening to me right now.

Yep

I'd rather be making optimal present-decisions.

Fair enough.

You can imagine yourself walking through the Louvre, and it may be pleasant to imagine it, but it's not the same as actually walking through the Louvre, which will either happen in due time and be pleasant, or it won't, in which case you'll feel disappointment because your imagined trip isn't coming to fruition

The caveat would be immediate anticipation, which is a distinct feeling.

6:33 PM

For example, when you are about to have something happen to you... Right now... That I can't describe on this christian server.

Yeah, and anything "immediate" is probably emotion rather than suffering, anyway

That's not really what I mean though.

6:33 PM

Different state for the same word.

@Scarlet how would you define soul?

Btw I had some more thoughts for Cassidy too

I generally don't, unless it refers to some numinous sort of sense-of-being or "innateness" or something like that.

6:38 PM

On the other topic though: I think at one point in this conversation it touched on the crux--over-attachment to expectation. Do not become attached to expectations in case they fail to materialize, and do not judge yourself for being wrong, update and move on. Much of the rest is unnecessary.

One way to phrase it is that guilt, blame, pride, worry and expectation are "sins" (in error) because they arise from a belief that anything that happens in life could happen against the will of God. "What I/you/he/she/they did is invalid because it goes against God's plans." This uncomfortableness dissolves once it is seen that nothing that happens in life could ever be separate from God. (edited)

6:41 PM

@Scarlet I agree that that's the essentials right there. The rest is unnecessary if your suffering is sufficiently mild.

6:43 PM

@JGC Ping for Cassidy (two messages up)

6:45 PM

Side note that I often feel some guilt/shame from oversharing the framework, but that discussion I had with Zen earlier felt really helpful for my own understanding of it

I do hate to admit but this conversation has made me reflect on the sort of existential angst I had had issues with previously and I think it likely was stemming from a kind of attachment to expectations, and that I hadn't even recognized it as that. I wonder too if this might not explain the random bout of low grade dissociation I had a couple of years ago also.

6:46 PM

I do hate to admit but this conversation has made me reflect on the sort of existential angst I had had issues with previously and I think it likely was stemming from a kind of attachment to expectations, and that I hadn't even recognized it as that. I wonder too if this might not explain the random bout of low grade dissociation I had a couple of years ago also.

6:47 PM

I do hate to admit but this conversation has made me reflect on the sort of existential angst I had had issues with previously and I think it likely was stemming from a kind of attachment to expectations, and that I hadn't even recognized it as that. I wonder too if this might not explain the random bout of low grade dissociation I had a couple of years ago also.

Noice!

The sharing of ideas is how we purify our ideas with the stabilizing affects of the group intelligence. And how we learn things our perspective does not naturally jump to that others do. They should always be shared when it is safe to do so, ideally in an environment where they will be listened to but also challenged.

1

Scarlet you wanna elaborate on that minor bout of dissociation?

Unfastened Belts

Scarlet you wanna elaborate on that minor bout of dissociation?

I had an issue, I think towards-ish the end of the time I had been the one "in charge", where I just felt a constant state of mild/moderate derealization. I don't remember for exactly how long, but at least a couple of months I believe. I have a tendency towards existential angst, though I don't exactly know why, so it might have stemmed from that.

6:55 PM

Maybe my issue was having too singular of a focus.

6:55 PM

And not being able to be present enough in the current moment, outside of certain things.

I see

Feel free to ask questions, it might help me clarify things for myself also.

6:56 PM

Well, hold on.

6:57 PM

I don't know if that's a good idea or not. Anyway, I still am not entirely sure what to think about it.

Wait why would it be a bad idea?